Stunted in organic soil?

[ShadyGrove]

Hey y’all! I used to post / lurk on AFN a few years ago, and figured I’d join back with a question about my new grow.

Ive got a Twisted Tree Sugar Cube bout 19 days in, and it looks like it’s stunted. I’m looking for some help to figure out what is going wrong with her!

Relevant info:

Genetics: Twisted Tree Sugar Cube

Container: 6.6 gallon fabric pot

Soil: Buildasoil 3.0 - used for about 4+ runs, reammended with about 4 tbsps of BAS Craft Blend and NTFG One Shot. Its been over a year since I last used it, I top dressed with Craft Blend and GreenGro Pridelands last grow.

Light: Budget LED Full Spec (looks like this company doesn’t exist anymore but you can see my run with it on old afn here New Grower - Shady's Micro Grove: Twisted Trees, Aliens, and Nectar. First Journal, Second Grow. | The Autoflower Network Archives )

Environment:

77-81 F

70%+ RH

0.7-1 VPD

~20 DLI

Water:

I’ve been watering with distilled water mixed with BAS aloe, BAS quijalala, NTFG Zeus Juice, Rootwise Mycrobe Complete.

Moisture level has been between 30-100 MBAR according to the blumat sensor (water it to around 30-40 every couple days, wait till it gets to 100 and water again)

It’s been bit dark green since it started growing, and the node spacing is super short. But it has been pretty happy looking the whole time.

I’m guessing it’s some sort of combination of the soil being too hot / out of whack somehow, over watering a bit early on, it doesnt like distilled water, or genetics… but I’m stumped!

Anyone have any ideas what could have happened here and how I can recover it a bit, or prevent it from happening again?

Day 7

Day 11

Day 19 (starting to flower, and blumats)

[Dankstyle-J]

I’m not really familiar with the products I sort of craft my own My guess is the soil is to hot I don’t grow in soil I grow living coco but when I did grow in soil I used to take a solo cup an make an indentation into the soil I would then fill the hole with a seedling Starter mix thus giving the seedling a lil time to adjust before it hits the richer organic soil.If it’s a larger planter I have used the big gulp style cups .The only downside is seedling starter mix tends to dry out fast

[frankthetank]

A few thoughts…

Overwatering can cause stunting… so I would check that. I see you’ve got some automation going…how often and how much watering? Are you checking weight of pot occasionally? You don’t want a huge dry back with organic, but you also don’t want overwatering.

Also, did you do anything to reinvigorate the microbial life in the old soil? Add new ewc, or teas, etc?

[ShadyGrove]

@Dankstyle-J

I’m not really familiar with the products I sort of craft my own My guess is the soil is to hot I don’t grow in soil I grow living coco but when I did grow in soil I used to take a solo cup an make an indentation into the soil I would then fill the hole with a seedling Starter mix thus giving the seedling a lil time to adjust before it hits the richer organic soil.If it’s a larger planter I have used the big gulp style cups .The only downside is seedling starter mix tends to dry out fast

That sounds like a great idea, ill try that next time! I’ve got a bit of leftover Buildasoil Light I could use.

I tried to go light with the reammend but maybe there was more leftovers in the soil than I thought.

[ShadyGrove]

@frankthetank

A few thoughts…

Overwatering can cause stunting… so I would check that. I see you’ve got some automation going…how often and how much watering? Are you checking weight of pot occasionally? You don’t want a huge dry back with organic, but you also don’t want overwatering.

Also, did you do anything to reinvigorate the microbial life in the old soil? Add new ewc, or teas, etc?

Soil prep:

To prepare the soil I did a “flush” to runoff twice with NFTG Herculean Harvest and BAS Quillaja, which is basically just liquid bone meal to flush out any salts and other extras in the soil (the Q to make sure there wasn’t any dry spots).

I added some cover crop and mulch after that to see if things started to grow - which they did.

Watering:

I put in the blumat sensor after that, looking through my logs, I kept it around 40-100 mbar the first week. I’m thinking I could have potentially over watered here at the the beginning, but that is the range recommended for the soil.

I’ve been watering a cup or two every couple days to keep it below 100 mbar.

I’ve been trying be consistent but I may have been keeping things slightly too damp at the beginning?

I set up the blumats the other day as I’m gonna be out of town for a couple days, they haven’t gone off yet but Im hoping they keep it between 60-100 mbar (I’ll be monitoring it until I leave).

(and if you’re not familiar with the mbar stuff, below 30 is pretty damp, 150 is pretty dry. the BAS site recommends keeping it between 40-80, blumat recommends keeping it at 100).

Microbes:

I planted the seed with some dry Bigfoot mycorrhiza that is used for transplanting, I’ve had good luck using it in the past.

I thought I had some leftover Rootwise Mycrobe Complete, but I didn’t, but I got some and watered that in on day 9, along with some Rootwise enzymes and SLF100 (more enzymes).

Ive also been using aloe and NFTG Zeus Juice (kelp + humic acid) pretty much the whole way.

I top dressed with some old homemade EWC on day 9 along with the tea mixture, but it was old and dried out so not sure how much life is in it anymore!

I fed the worms coffee grounds, leaves and plant matter from my old grows, some nutrients (like craft Blend and silica), buus compost, and leftover fruits and veggies, so I would imagine it was pretty nutrient dense.

[frankthetank]

@ShadyGrove

and if you’re not familiar with the mbar stuff, below 30 is pretty damp, 150 is pretty dry. the BAS site recommends keeping it between 40-80, blumat recommends keeping it at 100).

For what? Photo periods?

Autoflowers, specifically at a certain stage of development, have unique watering needs in order to avoid stunting.

Go grab a handful of that soil and squeeze it… How many drops of water come out? Does it totally hold together? Or slightly crumble but mostly together?

Field capacity is generally where you want to be… But early on you want to hit field capacity, then dry back a bit, field capacity again, dry back (slightly, is all…dry-ish on top, minimal moisture felt when you bury a finger)…etc. If you keep it fully on the edge of saturated, the roots will stay a small ball…

My feeling is that this is stunting based on overwatering, and not hot soil. In the pictures provided, there’s no clawing, burning etc. No real signs of N tox. This is a watering issue, in my opinion.

[frankthetank]

Yo @EyesOnFire-1

You want to give a second opinion, if you’ve got time?

[EyesOnFire-1]

Well my forst few questions are did you re amend with that stuff each time younised it the 4+ runs?a d you did it again this time with nothing done different a d it faded completely at the end of last grow?or last time you used it rather,it faded well?

Also,doubt this is the case,but could have hit a large compacted or rock or some damn hard thing..unlikely but had that happen. Most likely it’s over fertilized, with possible PH swing with lack of buffer material such as lime,gypsum n so on.

And assuming the light isn’t too far or anything..

[EyesOnFire-1]

Yeah,my take would be hot’ish and under PH’d soil if you will..lack of possible buffering..disnt read anything is soil prep for that..if I were a betting man

[ShadyGrove]

@frankthetank

For what? Photo periods?

Autoflowers, specifically at a certain stage of development, have unique watering needs in order to avoid stunting.

Go grab a handful of that soil and squeeze it… How many drops of water come out? Does it totally hold together? Or slightly crumble but mostly together?

I’m not sure! I’m just going by what it says in the product description on their site haha. On previous runs I think kept it closer to 100, but I think this time I may have overdone the watering a bit in the beginning

I just grabbed a handful of soil (reading is at 90 mbar right now) - no water droplets, and it slightly crumbles but is mostly together. Is that about the consistency it should be?

Its been a couple of years since my last grow so I’m kinda fuzzy on some details of my previous runs!

[Cannaficianado]

I agree with frank here. Im running the same exact setup, granted my plant is a photo, in the first pic I would have said for 2 weeks its fine. Im at 10 days right now and I just started developing my second node. But flowering by day 19 is kind of alarming.

It kind of does sound like you were overwatering. Organic soil is suppose to be kept at about 30-40% of its field capacity which is fully saturated and cannot hold any more. It sounds to me like you were keeping it at field capacity. You should be able to grab a handful of soil and squeeze it, should feel like a wrung out sponge, damp but not dripping. It should clump but still be crumbly.

Im not running blumat products yet im just going by look and feel. I heaft the side of my 10 gallon amd if it feels anchored then I know it has plenty of water. Also watch how much surfactant you use. You only need it when soil gets hydrophobic, good organic soil should naturally break the water up as it flows through and its good to use a pump sprayer too. Too much surfactant can disrupt microbe colonies on roots. If you use it to hydrate out of the bag that should be enough for a couple weeks it sticks in the soil.

Build a soil 3.0 is built to be a water only recipe too. In smaller containers like 10 gallon-15 gallon you may need to do a veg top dress but you can probably get away with just chopping and dropping your cover crop with Kashi gold to speed up decomposition and top dress with build a flower or use build a bloom sparingly during flower. Autos dont need a whole ton of nutes and organics dont need so much additives to water. All those additives are for building soil back up between grows.

Adding microbes to a fresh bag of already innoculated soil is just super speeding the breakdown of what’s in the soil already. Your really shouldnt need rootwise or products like that unless you killed your population, washed them out or are building soil back up.

[ShadyGrove]

@EyesOnFire-1

Yeah,my take would be hot’ish and under PH’d soil if you will..lack of possible buffering..disnt read anything is soil prep for that..if I were a betting man

My last grow did…not go very well, plants were small and I didn’t really have time to take care of em. But I amended with the same - Craft Blend and One Shot, and I top dressed every 2-3 weeks with a 1-2 tbsps of Pridelands Bloom. The other 2 or so grows I did turned out great using the same method though. That was a couple years ago, sometime in 2024, and the soil has been sitting in a tub since then.

I just tried taking a slurry test to get the pH of the soil, but I think my pH pen is being screwy - doesnt seem to be getting the right measurements after I calibrated it, so not exactly sure what the soil pH is…

I do have some DTE Garden Lime I’ve used in the past to get the soil pH under control. Would you recommend using that?

I am thinking of starting this grow over, since its early enough and I probably wont get much yield…

[ShadyGrove]

@Cannaficianado

I agree with frank here. Im running the same exact setup, granted my plant is a photo, in the first pic I would have said for 2 weeks its fine. Im at 10 days right now and I just started developing my second node. But flowering by day 19 is kind of alarming.

Yeah I was relatively happy with how it was going until I saw how small the node spacing was and that it started flowering this week!

@Cannaficianado

It kind of does sound like you were overwatering. Organic soil is suppose to be kept at about 30-40% of its field capacity which is fully saturated and cannot hold any more. It sounds to me like you were keeping it at field capacity. You should be able to grab a handful of soil and squeeze it, should feel like a wrung out sponge, damp but not dripping. It should clump but still be crumbly.

Im not running blumat products yet im just going by look and feel. I heaft the side of my 10 gallon amd if it feels anchored then I know it has plenty of water. Also watch how much surfactant you use. You only need it when soil gets hydrophobic, good organic soil should naturally break the water up as it flows through and its good to use a pump sprayer too. Too much surfactant can disrupt microbe colonies on roots. If you use it to hydrate out of the bag that should be enough for a couple weeks it sticks in the soil.

Yeah I may have been keeping it a little to damp in the beginning, which I imagine slowed root growth a bit. I’ll try to use both the weight of the pot and the sensor for the next start (dont wanna move it around too much after the blumats are installed!)

Good to know about the surfectant though, I am probably using it too much. It was bone dry when I first started this grow since it was sitting around for about a year or two. I also just got a cheap pump sprayer and that seems to be working wonders compared to trying to slowly water it out of a cup

@Cannaficianado

Build a soil 3.0 is built to be a water only recipe too. In smaller containers like 10 gallon-15 gallon you may need to do a veg top dress but you can probably get away with just chopping and dropping your cover crop with Kashi gold to speed up decomposition and top dress with build a flower or use build a bloom sparingly during flower. Autos dont need a whole ton of nutes and organics dont need so much additives to water. All those additives are for building soil back up between grows.

Adding microbes to a fresh bag of already innoculated soil is just super speeding the breakdown of what’s in the soil already. Your really shouldnt need rootwise or products like that unless you killed your population, washed them out or are building soil back up.

I did use this soil for a couple of other grows already so its definitely not fresh, and I am pretty sure I killed all the life after letting it sit around for a while in a dark tub And I actually just picked up some Kashi Gold on the 420 sale, so I’ll plan on chopping and dropping with that when I get it!

[ShadyGrove]

For reference, here is what my last successful auto grow looked in this soil using the same 6.6 gallon pot, similar process, but in a slightly bigger tent (and better light…)

[RickDirt]

Looks healthy she’s just going to be small.

I would buy a small bag of perlite and replace 1/3 of the substrate for next grow. If your mix has enough drainage you won’t have overwatering issues. You should also buy some earthworm castings and mix in 2 or 4 cups. Recharge or some other bio product helps. I compost my substrate so there are plenty of available nutrients when you start. Having said that I don’t give any added nutrients until after day 28. Then I top dress with EWC, compost and a tbls of GreenGro Flower Finisher ( the bloom nutes in the top dress will make them set bud like crazy. ) No more bloom nutes until the last 4 weeks.

I think your soil just needed more nutes. The plant will send a tap root down to the bottom and determine whether there is an abundance of nutrients or not. That’s probably why she flowered early and remained small.

You can also do a bottom dressing when your filling your pot.

[Entombed]

I’ve bought a bag of the BaS 3.0 and a quick google says it’s pretty daggone hot for seedlings from a couple different sources. Planned to layer some easy light mix potting soil on top. I haven’t got anything else to add but I did find the covered information useful for my upcoming soil adventure.

[frankthetank]

I run autos in bas light mix… No issues…

[EyesOnFire-1]

Exactly..its hot, possible over watered leading to compaction, less air n creating an environment that far from optimal.i think it’s a twofer..lots of wayer,not enough aeration to handle all that water..compaction leading to a far hotter environment..been there done that

Get with me next time ya wanna mix or amend the soil.ill help ya out.

[RickDirt]

He’s grown in it 4 times and it’s set a year since last grow. Wouldn’t think it would still be too hot. Could just be that particular seed. I’ve never had one stay that small but it looks healthy. Who knows? All you can do is try try again. Lol

[EyesOnFire-1]

Yeah,few ever liked my opinion..so i dont do this shit anymore..but tonamswer your questions..yeahit could be..but again it’s the watering causing what I call a caustic environment..not caustic exactly just a term I used back when.but it needs to be pulled imo,re worked with more aeration, less water..always go by weight especially when small and a huge pot..I use 7 gallon all the time a d run into this more often than I’d care to..but it could’ve been a runt seed..but either way ya wanna slice it..id just pull it cuz it won’t produce a lot,20 days is nothing..re work start a new..happy harvesting.